1 00:00:20,380 --> 00:00:14,209 I do if my memory holds I had the 2 00:00:25,750 --> 00:00:20,390 privilege of addressing this group in 3 00:00:31,510 --> 00:00:25,760 1979 for the first time and we have been 4 00:00:36,010 --> 00:00:31,520 fairly regular participants ever since I 5 00:00:42,010 --> 00:00:36,020 never failed to come to this meeting 6 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:42,020 with a sense of gratitude and respect 7 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:47,000 for the existence of this unique form 8 00:00:58,760 --> 00:00:51,930 the place where one can come exchange 9 00:01:03,889 --> 00:00:58,770 here it is lofty and nutty ideas with 10 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:03,899 that with an openness of mind among the 11 00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:09,990 audience a great deal of professional 12 00:01:17,810 --> 00:01:13,110 and technical astuteness 13 00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:17,820 and leave with some benefits for having 14 00:01:28,910 --> 00:01:23,600 having been here I thank you for that 15 00:01:35,149 --> 00:01:28,920 now those of you who have come back from 16 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:35,159 launch have digested to some degree may 17 00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:40,140 already be asking science of the 18 00:01:51,859 --> 00:01:47,000 subjective again this topic has been 19 00:01:54,940 --> 00:01:51,869 massaged a great deal in our history we 20 00:01:58,670 --> 00:01:54,950 ourselves have written a number of 21 00:02:02,200 --> 00:01:58,680 articles directly addressing the issue 22 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:02,210 and indirectly addressing the issue 23 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:07,049 it appears predominantly in our two 24 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:11,220 books one of which is languishing out 25 00:02:16,430 --> 00:02:12,330 there 26 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:16,440 Brenda has some complaints about a 27 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:20,250 little adamant disappearances of copies 28 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:23,610 and what you do if you want to get one 29 00:02:32,090 --> 00:02:26,370 and there weren't any left please talk 30 00:02:37,180 --> 00:02:32,100 to her about all of that but why are we 31 00:02:41,050 --> 00:02:37,190 the revisiting science little subjective 32 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:41,060 first of all I point out to you that the 33 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:45,360 title is rather carefully selected it 34 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:51,650 says toward a science of the point is 35 00:03:02,590 --> 00:02:57,290 that although we are fully persuaded 36 00:03:05,710 --> 00:03:02,600 over the central importance of the issue 37 00:03:08,780 --> 00:03:05,720 we've still got a long way to go and 38 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:08,790 we're still looking for a lot of help 39 00:03:18,140 --> 00:03:14,310 here maybe a little bit of that will 40 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:18,150 spring up it's a consequence what we 41 00:03:32,810 --> 00:03:28,600 presentation in that I come with no 42 00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:32,820 PowerPoint in fact no illustrations at 43 00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:36,620 all I will wave my hands periodically 44 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:43,620 but no no formal illustrations science 45 00:03:50,090 --> 00:03:47,730 of the subjective first issue would seem 46 00:03:54,170 --> 00:03:50,100 to be if we're going to talk about 47 00:03:57,830 --> 00:03:54,180 science or the subjective we maybe ought 48 00:04:02,900 --> 00:03:57,840 to be sure we agree on the definition of 49 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:02,910 science what is science in its most 50 00:04:13,130 --> 00:04:11,040 fundamental conceptualization as every 51 00:04:16,909 --> 00:04:13,140 little school child knows 52 00:04:22,820 --> 00:04:16,919 eventually the word derives from the 53 00:04:24,189 --> 00:04:22,830 Latin Spira which means to know to 54 00:04:28,490 --> 00:04:24,199 understand 55 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:28,500 that's all doesn't tell you what you 56 00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:30,930 have to understand how you have to 57 00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:34,320 understand it it's a search for 58 00:04:44,950 --> 00:04:39,960 knowledge notwithstanding from the days 59 00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:44,960 of Latin the concept of science has 60 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:51,150 evolved in many ramifications the 61 00:05:00,770 --> 00:04:54,650 distinctions among which may or may not 62 00:05:03,950 --> 00:05:00,780 be important feel if I had brought along 63 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:03,960 my favorite illustrations I'd have 64 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:06,600 brought along the one from The New 65 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:11,310 Yorker many years ago a cartoon of scene 66 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:14,070 is some kitchen somewhere in an 67 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:18,449 apartment dwelling there's a sink in it 68 00:05:27,439 --> 00:05:21,570 and there's water running out of the 69 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:27,449 faucet of the sink see my handy work and 70 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:34,910 there is a dowdy house lady standing by 71 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:39,510 hands clasp and admiration and a little 72 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:44,130 tiny polymer standing by the sink with 73 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:52,020 the running water saying science this is 74 00:06:07,149 --> 00:06:01,960 science has come to mean bodies of 75 00:06:12,140 --> 00:06:07,159 established knowledge physics chemistry 76 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:12,150 geology you name it it has come to mean 77 00:06:26,180 --> 00:06:17,070 an orderly study of certain explicit 78 00:06:30,310 --> 00:06:26,190 phenomena earthquakes oceanic issues you 79 00:06:35,330 --> 00:06:30,320 can name them also it is commonly 80 00:06:36,549 --> 00:06:35,340 applied to a body of people who practice 81 00:06:48,669 --> 00:06:36,559 it 82 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:48,679 topics and those people and those 83 00:07:00,189 --> 00:06:53,289 activities have engendered in our 84 00:07:05,139 --> 00:07:00,199 contemporary societies science says use 85 00:07:12,299 --> 00:07:05,149 this toothpaste science says there is 86 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:15,639 then there of course there is science 87 00:07:25,809 --> 00:07:19,849 out of the methodology science as a 88 00:07:30,969 --> 00:07:25,819 means of acquiring the knowledge now in 89 00:07:34,149 --> 00:07:30,979 most situations these definitions really 90 00:07:37,299 --> 00:07:34,159 don't make that much difference they 91 00:07:41,649 --> 00:07:37,309 pretty well agree at the end of the day 92 00:07:46,149 --> 00:07:41,659 on what they're specifying but in rare 93 00:07:51,669 --> 00:07:46,159 cases and important cases the 94 00:07:56,319 --> 00:07:51,679 distinctions are important for example 95 00:08:00,299 --> 00:07:56,329 in our work those the distinctions that 96 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:00,309 have come into it into action on us 97 00:08:10,629 --> 00:08:05,769 they have disagreed on the proper 98 00:08:15,329 --> 00:08:10,639 circumscription of the topics that's not 99 00:08:19,349 --> 00:08:15,339 science our critics well Thomas 100 00:08:23,259 --> 00:08:19,359 they've disagreed similarly on their 101 00:08:27,279 --> 00:08:23,269 definition of the scholars that practice 102 00:08:33,730 --> 00:08:27,289 the science they are not scientists over 103 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:33,740 there and so on and they certainly have 104 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:39,110 disagreed on the methodologies now we're 105 00:08:45,579 --> 00:08:41,689 going to take the position here as we 106 00:08:49,150 --> 00:08:45,589 have in our previous numerous 107 00:08:52,629 --> 00:08:49,160 publications on the subject 108 00:09:01,110 --> 00:08:52,639 that when push comes to shove the 109 00:09:08,319 --> 00:09:04,210 science of course has been practiced in 110 00:09:13,139 --> 00:09:08,329 various formats back until that dawn of 111 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:13,149 history but I think most of us would 112 00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:18,170 associate with the definition that of 113 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:22,790 modern science that Sir Francis Bacon 114 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:28,490 offered a few centuries back we can go 115 00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:31,730 into a history lesson of why he was 116 00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:34,220 pushed into this definition about his 117 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:37,519 quarrels with the church and whatnot but 118 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:39,680 at the end of the day what bacon was 119 00:09:49,329 --> 00:09:44,560 saying stripped down to its underwear 120 00:09:54,929 --> 00:09:49,339 science has to be a dialogue between 121 00:09:58,629 --> 00:09:54,939 empirical experience experiment and 122 00:10:02,139 --> 00:09:58,639 theoretical conceptualization modeling 123 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:02,149 each must inform the other you do 124 00:10:10,110 --> 00:10:05,689 experiments you get results you then try 125 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:10,120 to interpret them again some model or 126 00:10:17,639 --> 00:10:13,910 you conceive some model and then you go 127 00:10:22,059 --> 00:10:17,649 off and do some experiments to test it 128 00:10:27,429 --> 00:10:22,069 he was quite florid in his writing about 129 00:10:31,179 --> 00:10:27,439 this just digress a bit he said the 130 00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:31,189 problem with my science today and my 131 00:10:36,699 --> 00:10:34,550 scientist community it's if there's one 132 00:10:39,610 --> 00:10:36,709 branch you over here like a bunch of 133 00:10:42,939 --> 00:10:39,620 ants that doesn't do anything but 134 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:42,949 collect the results they get data and 135 00:10:51,790 --> 00:10:48,040 they store it up in there and cavities 136 00:10:54,850 --> 00:10:51,800 without making any increase in their 137 00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:54,860 knowledge on the other hand he said I've 138 00:11:02,300 --> 00:10:57,649 got a bunch of colleagues who like 139 00:11:06,110 --> 00:11:02,310 spiders spend theoretical webs 140 00:11:10,250 --> 00:11:06,120 out of the ether never bothering to 141 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:10,260 check whether they work real science he 142 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:15,270 says must engage these true capabilities 143 00:11:22,910 --> 00:11:18,050 of the human mind 144 00:11:25,850 --> 00:11:22,920 we had a paraphrasing of it in one of 145 00:11:30,740 --> 00:11:25,860 our books we call to the scientific to 146 00:11:34,190 --> 00:11:30,750 step our science must go florid doing 147 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:34,200 stuff and testing what it's doing 148 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:37,290 lurching back and forth from the 149 00:11:45,550 --> 00:11:41,250 theoretical foot to the experimental 150 00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:45,560 foot testing one against the other and 151 00:11:57,230 --> 00:11:50,160 by the way keep your eye out for the 152 00:12:02,680 --> 00:11:57,240 anomalous stuff it's not that says that 153 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:02,690 theory is wrong the stuff that says this 154 00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:06,060 empirical evidence doesn't agree with 155 00:12:15,260 --> 00:12:12,630 that theory and oh by the way bacon knew 156 00:12:18,980 --> 00:12:15,270 all about anomalies he spent a lot of 157 00:12:22,490 --> 00:12:18,990 his time doing experiments that would 158 00:12:25,970 --> 00:12:22,500 have been quite valid to our work today 159 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:25,980 he'd have been a good member of the FCC 160 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:34,110 if we could have kept him around now the 161 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:38,370 science there for methodologically needs 162 00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:43,410 to search for its platform of dialogue 163 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:45,839 between theory and experiment but it 164 00:12:50,810 --> 00:12:46,830 must do it 165 00:12:55,340 --> 00:12:50,820 in a disciplined fashion it must be 166 00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:55,350 rigorous in that methodology but it must 167 00:13:00,800 --> 00:12:57,420 also be open-minded 168 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:00,810 it must be humble in the face of 169 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:04,650 empirical evidence and it must respect 170 00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:10,170 the work of others and to that extent I 171 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:15,390 think we can sign on to his search 172 00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:20,130 for a science of the subjective that has 173 00:13:28,699 --> 00:13:24,560 the essential dialogue openly pursue it 174 00:13:33,769 --> 00:13:28,709 respectfully pursue it and hopefully to 175 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:33,779 deliver food to get us closer to a 176 00:13:43,930 --> 00:13:40,649 science now if this methodology is going 177 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:43,940 to work it's going to need something 178 00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:47,670 that is going to be a problem here it's 179 00:14:07,150 --> 00:13:57,670 modern science traditional of science 180 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:07,160 has evolved from a evolutionary chain of 181 00:14:14,449 --> 00:14:10,950 conceptual currencies you look in any 182 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:14,459 scientific category and you find it 183 00:14:21,939 --> 00:14:18,450 starting looking at matter substance 184 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:21,949 mass something that dealt with the 185 00:14:32,889 --> 00:14:26,850 substance of the field it then moved on 186 00:14:35,329 --> 00:14:32,899 to matters of energy kinetic energy 187 00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:35,339 electromagnetic energy nuclear energy 188 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:39,199 whatever a means that was not 189 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:43,680 substantive but the formative means that 190 00:14:50,420 --> 00:14:47,430 did things and then eventually and 191 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:50,430 whether you're talking physics chemistry 192 00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:54,690 biology or whatnot you eventually come 193 00:15:02,210 --> 00:14:59,100 to the currency of information now 194 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:02,220 clearly as we search for a science of 195 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:06,510 the subjective the priorities there are 196 00:15:12,199 --> 00:15:08,250 going to be a little different than what 197 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:12,209 has been going on traditionally up to 198 00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:21,319 problem is where as mass matter of 199 00:15:28,780 --> 00:15:24,839 substance whatnot is tangible 200 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:28,790 you can specify it you can way that you 201 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:32,910 baingan against itself and whereas 202 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:37,290 energy he has meteors and other means of 203 00:15:45,710 --> 00:15:41,310 the diagnosed it information gets 204 00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:45,720 Messier and but it gets Messier in a way 205 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:49,830 that impacts others peculiarly it gets 206 00:15:58,070 --> 00:15:53,130 Messier because information comes in two 207 00:16:01,400 --> 00:15:58,080 pops pop number one we'll call objective 208 00:16:07,940 --> 00:16:01,410 information it's the stuff you can 209 00:16:12,829 --> 00:16:07,950 measure yourself you can compound in 210 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:12,839 some in some reasonable recipe it's the 211 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:17,810 it's the stuff that you can go out and 212 00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:20,040 experience directly 213 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:23,279 it comes with numbers attached you can 214 00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:29,910 quantify it even in a modern business of 215 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:34,320 the computer ages there is an objective 216 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:39,690 information capability but there's also 217 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:43,290 the other bucket the subject of 218 00:16:49,579 --> 00:16:45,450 information and now we're getting close 219 00:16:53,930 --> 00:16:49,589 to our mark because there is no one who 220 00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:53,940 will deny that whereas how hard the 221 00:17:02,000 --> 00:16:58,560 baseball is hit or how deeply we dig the 222 00:17:07,329 --> 00:17:02,010 well are not important parts of the 223 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:07,339 information bucket also there are the 224 00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:11,250 subjective factors what does it mean to 225 00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:15,689 us how important is it do I have any 226 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:20,670 resonance with it do I love it what what 227 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:23,280 are we gonna do with subjective 228 00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:26,370 information if we're gonna go forward 229 00:17:36,549 --> 00:17:30,000 with a science little subjective pretty 230 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:36,559 fundamental issue if you were to query a 231 00:17:42,729 --> 00:17:41,130 broader academic scientific community 232 00:17:47,869 --> 00:17:42,739 with the question 233 00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:47,879 can or indeed should science mess around 234 00:17:56,899 --> 00:17:51,960 with subjective information he would get 235 00:18:00,560 --> 00:17:56,909 a broad spectrum of every sponsors the 236 00:18:04,159 --> 00:18:00,570 so-called exact sciences I would say he 237 00:18:07,639 --> 00:18:04,169 styled on the fellas would probably say 238 00:18:10,219 --> 00:18:07,649 no we don't want to mess with that we 239 00:18:13,609 --> 00:18:10,229 don't know how to quantify it we don't 240 00:18:16,759 --> 00:18:13,619 know how to specify it we don't even 241 00:18:19,989 --> 00:18:16,769 believe fine it it's gonna mess up the 242 00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:19,999 game no stay out of it 243 00:18:27,379 --> 00:18:24,830 however if they were a little more 244 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:27,389 circumspect about it they would note 245 00:18:33,729 --> 00:18:31,049 that the earliest Sciences and we're 246 00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:33,739 going back beyond the alchemical 247 00:18:40,899 --> 00:18:36,720 traditions into the hermetic terribly 248 00:18:44,599 --> 00:18:40,909 Jews into the Egyptian stuff and beyond 249 00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:44,609 we're very heavily loaded with 250 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:51,059 subjective information they would also 251 00:18:58,460 --> 00:18:54,769 note that some of their most revered 252 00:19:02,289 --> 00:18:58,470 philosophers of science and they still 253 00:19:05,649 --> 00:19:02,299 like to call them the salawa was a PhD 254 00:19:08,719 --> 00:19:05,659 scientist that some of those 255 00:19:12,409 --> 00:19:08,729 philosophers of science would also be 256 00:19:17,149 --> 00:19:12,419 out with a resounding yes it's got to be 257 00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:17,159 in there think of William James for 258 00:19:25,089 --> 00:19:20,070 example I'll read you one of his more 259 00:19:29,419 --> 00:19:25,099 famous quotations the spirit and 260 00:19:33,589 --> 00:19:29,429 principles of science are mere affairs 261 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:33,599 of method there is nothing in them that 262 00:19:39,969 --> 00:19:37,369 need Hinderer science from dealing 263 00:19:43,609 --> 00:19:39,979 successfully with a world in which 264 00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:43,619 personal forces are the starting point 265 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:46,710 of the new effects the only form of the 266 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:49,950 thing that we directly encounter the 267 00:19:57,790 --> 00:19:53,630 only experience that we concretely have 268 00:20:01,320 --> 00:19:57,800 is our own personal life the only 269 00:20:05,050 --> 00:20:01,330 completed a category of our thinking our 270 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:05,060 professor is of a philosophy tell us is 271 00:20:12,340 --> 00:20:09,070 the category of personality and this 272 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:12,350 systematic denial on the science is part 273 00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:17,290 of personality as a condition of events 274 00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:20,830 the rigorous belief that at the own 275 00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:24,500 essential and innermost nature our world 276 00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:29,630 is a strictly impersonal world may 277 00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:33,740 conceivably as the whirligig of time nor 278 00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:37,550 was around proved to be the very defect 279 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:40,820 that our descendants will be most 280 00:20:49,870 --> 00:20:45,430 surprised that in our boasted science 281 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:49,880 the omission that to their eyes will 282 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:53,330 most tend to make it look perspective 283 00:21:01,630 --> 00:20:58,690 list and shorten there is an 284 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:01,640 intellectual damnation that somebody 285 00:21:08,050 --> 00:21:05,960 should be paying attention to it the 286 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:08,060 same sort of stuff can be found 287 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:13,130 elsewhere you can find it in on rebecca 288 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:16,130 soni we can find it in ernst mach you 289 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:18,530 can find it in carl jung as was 290 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:22,010 mentioned earlier today you can find it 291 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:25,810 in the patriarchs of quantum science 292 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:29,870 it's there in plunk it's there in poly 293 00:21:36,090 --> 00:21:31,850 it's there in treating her 294 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:36,100 it certainly is there in war they all 295 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:39,490 recognize that the end of the day that 296 00:21:48,610 --> 00:21:43,240 subjective information had to be in 297 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:48,620 their science eventually they did agree 298 00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:52,310 on that they also agreed that somebody 299 00:21:57,940 --> 00:21:54,200 was going to have to get them some 300 00:22:00,760 --> 00:21:57,950 better empirical evidence of how to do 301 00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:00,770 it and I think we're still searching for 302 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:09,720 certainly our modern work and the work 303 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:13,300 of these people in which we are 304 00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:16,450 surrounded today comes out with the 305 00:22:23,150 --> 00:22:17,950 resounding yes 306 00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:23,160 yes to the same question why because 307 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:26,980 empirically we find that our correlates 308 00:22:34,790 --> 00:22:31,570 in our attempts to do an empirical 309 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:34,800 theoretical dialogue are karlitz as 310 00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:40,830 observed in those empirical studies are 311 00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:44,830 subjective the phenomena do not 312 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:48,700 correlate worth a thing with objective 313 00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:51,670 stuff they don't correlate with space 314 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:54,400 they don't correlate with time they 315 00:22:59,610 --> 00:22:56,350 don't correlate with the machines that 316 00:23:03,180 --> 00:22:59,620 you're doing your experiments on they 317 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:03,190 correlate with mood with passions with 318 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:06,210 emotional aspects of the interactions 319 00:23:13,950 --> 00:23:09,330 how can you do a science of the 320 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:13,960 subjective and ignore the subjective 321 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:24,250 information in our lengthy panorama of 322 00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:29,710 empirical presentations the the archival 323 00:23:39,650 --> 00:23:33,820 articles the books and whatnot you can 324 00:23:46,290 --> 00:23:39,660 read about an almost endless string of 325 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:46,300 display that human consciousness is 326 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:51,810 capable of inserting or extracting 327 00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:56,410 objective objective information from 328 00:24:03,200 --> 00:23:59,010 today that's like all systems good 329 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:03,210 that's what we wanted to go problem the 330 00:24:13,250 --> 00:24:08,370 correlations of that interaction that 331 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,260 objective change in the physical world 332 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:15,600 our subjective 333 00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:40,490 this of course is where the shoe is 334 00:24:50,930 --> 00:24:45,030 binding as we speak today we can sit 335 00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:50,940 here and continue to gesticulate about 336 00:24:57,020 --> 00:24:53,550 how important the inclusion of the 337 00:25:01,370 --> 00:24:57,030 subjective factors in our new science 338 00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:01,380 may be but how do you do it how do you 339 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:06,240 quantify subjective parameters how do 340 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:09,930 you even define them in some way that 341 00:25:18,740 --> 00:25:14,360 allows communication and dialogue and 342 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:18,750 worst of all how do you replicate and 343 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:21,410 everyone in this room know it was 344 00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:24,270 replication is the whipping boy of our 345 00:25:31,370 --> 00:25:28,320 of our work that stuff works one day it 346 00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:31,380 doesn't work the next day it works so 347 00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:33,480 with this Ferguson it doesn't work with 348 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:34,440 that person 349 00:25:41,870 --> 00:25:38,010 it works with this person now it doesn't 350 00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:41,880 work with that person tomorrow how does 351 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:46,620 one deal with this part of the 352 00:25:55,130 --> 00:25:51,450 subjective information pattern I don't 353 00:25:58,250 --> 00:25:55,140 think we know I don't think we know but 354 00:26:01,850 --> 00:25:58,260 I think we have at least clarity on the 355 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:01,860 point that the science cause science 356 00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:06,330 cannot advance into such foreign 357 00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:11,190 territory as our work represents without 358 00:26:19,930 --> 00:26:16,320 assigning some priority to the proactive 359 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:19,940 capacities of consciousness and 360 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:24,410 therefore we must now have as a prior 361 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:28,470 ingredient in our search for a science 362 00:26:36,850 --> 00:26:32,570 with this objective we must have a 363 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:36,860 science of consciousness a physics of 364 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:40,650 consciousness if you will and we are not 365 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:47,490 talking here neurological issues all 366 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:50,310 that much there are many people in this 367 00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:52,050 room don't get me wrong 368 00:27:00,440 --> 00:26:55,830 are doing superb pieces of research on 369 00:27:03,230 --> 00:27:00,450 the role of neurological function in the 370 00:27:06,190 --> 00:27:03,240 subjective information processing 371 00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:06,200 business and that needs to be 372 00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:09,390 acknowledged and digested and properly 373 00:27:16,750 --> 00:27:13,350 applied what is the brain doing when are 374 00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:16,760 anomalies our subjective information 375 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:21,480 processes are going on but at the end of 376 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:25,370 the day it can't be the whole picture 377 00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:30,150 from many years back my esteemed 378 00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:33,440 colleague Brenda who is fond of saying 379 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:38,520 looking for a consciousness in the human 380 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:44,250 brain looking for a subjectivity in the 381 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:50,490 human brain is like looking for the late 382 00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:54,570 night show proponents inside the 383 00:28:03,290 --> 00:28:00,960 television set there's more to it than 384 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:03,300 that and we don't know how to do without 385 00:28:16,370 --> 00:28:12,290 more I need the wine this up obviously 386 00:28:20,540 --> 00:28:16,380 in our references and there are many you 387 00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:20,550 can see a lot of the ramifications 388 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:23,840 although things you can I think 389 00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:28,110 reasonably say okay all you this you 390 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:30,720 don't understand what do you understand 391 00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:34,550 well we have been able to accumulate 392 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:39,600 some sort of a recipe for how you play 393 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:41,810 in this field 394 00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:45,690 it was articulated in a more recent 395 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:50,270 article of ours you can find in je and 396 00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:53,850 also repeated in some of the more recent 397 00:29:01,970 --> 00:28:56,910 books under the title of change the 398 00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:01,980 rules and essentially it says you are 399 00:29:05,910 --> 00:29:03,750 going to get there from here 400 00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:05,920 if you try to play 401 00:29:16,170 --> 00:29:11,340 by the prevailing rules of objective 402 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:16,180 replicable or dynamical causal of 403 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:19,570 science things have to have to change 404 00:29:25,620 --> 00:29:21,610 you've got to have a different rule 405 00:29:28,890 --> 00:29:25,630 system there are over arches here are 406 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:28,900 science other that's subjective and we 407 00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:32,110 know it's got to include things that are 408 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:35,440 not in conventional science it's got to 409 00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:38,770 have a proactive consciousness a 410 00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:43,060 consciousness that can produce objective 411 00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:48,510 physical effects with subjective 412 00:29:58,350 --> 00:29:53,260 correlations those correlations must 413 00:30:02,250 --> 00:29:58,360 involve things like intention what do 414 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:02,260 you want to happen they must involve 415 00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:04,210 things like resonance 416 00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:08,620 how can you somehow relate how can you 417 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:11,470 establish a bond between yourself and 418 00:30:19,020 --> 00:30:15,850 that machine or a bond between yourself 419 00:30:22,220 --> 00:30:19,030 and that other person our bond between 420 00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:22,230 yourself and that remote perception 421 00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:27,280 target how do you get the resonance that 422 00:30:35,970 --> 00:30:30,870 foster is subjective information 423 00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:35,980 exchange you must include something 424 00:30:44,420 --> 00:30:39,940 about attitude we spoke of openness but 425 00:30:48,050 --> 00:30:44,430 it turns out you can you can observe 426 00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:48,060 empirically that it helps if you proceed 427 00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:52,740 with levity with a light heartedness 428 00:31:02,330 --> 00:30:57,600 that you proceed with in a well-defined 429 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:02,340 personal meaning of personal conduct a 430 00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:06,690 personal purpose that prevails over the 431 00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:11,350 interaction it also becomes quite clear 432 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:14,140 and we heard some good stuff about this 433 00:31:19,769 --> 00:31:18,690 earlier today a lot of this is going on 434 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:19,779 unconscious 435 00:31:27,299 --> 00:31:23,710 sleep down there it's going on somewhere 436 00:31:30,629 --> 00:31:27,309 where we are not tracking it its 437 00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:30,639 burbling up into the conscious but the 438 00:31:40,019 --> 00:31:35,710 source is somehow down there we wrote a 439 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:40,029 model we called m5 what you can also go 440 00:31:45,629 --> 00:31:42,849 away and read about it talks about the 441 00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:45,639 role of unconscious processing in 442 00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:49,919 getting this subjective information 443 00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:56,080 capacity legitimized other strange 444 00:32:04,459 --> 00:31:59,679 things have come out of more than three 445 00:32:10,249 --> 00:32:04,469 decades of empirical study empirical 446 00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:10,259 objective study gender is important 447 00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:12,070 women and men 448 00:32:20,899 --> 00:32:16,080 do not do it the same way and these 449 00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:20,909 distinctions are replicable they are 450 00:32:30,539 --> 00:32:26,460 clear they are of consequential size 451 00:32:32,869 --> 00:32:30,549 something is going on differently with 452 00:32:37,820 --> 00:32:32,879 the females and with the males 453 00:32:41,339 --> 00:32:37,830 does it speak to a biological overtone 454 00:32:46,469 --> 00:32:41,349 does it speak to an evolutionary aspect 455 00:32:49,169 --> 00:32:46,479 I don't know Brenda what could speak to 456 00:32:52,649 --> 00:32:49,179 that for our better than I but there is 457 00:32:56,190 --> 00:32:52,659 no doubt empirically that men and women 458 00:33:02,810 --> 00:32:56,200 are different when it comes to this 459 00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:02,820 domain of science and not least of all 460 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:06,399 very importantly there has to come a 461 00:33:16,349 --> 00:33:11,710 respect for uncertainty uncertainty is 462 00:33:20,329 --> 00:33:16,359 the raw material out of which our 463 00:33:24,649 --> 00:33:20,339 consciousness our minds are able to 464 00:33:27,779 --> 00:33:24,659 construct their modifications of 465 00:33:31,379 --> 00:33:27,789 traditional behavior this is a 466 00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:31,389 probabilistic business and whether it is 467 00:33:36,879 --> 00:33:33,620 sources quantum mechanics 468 00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:36,889 whether it's neurological whether it's 469 00:33:43,779 --> 00:33:39,950 impressionistic doesn't seem to matter 470 00:33:47,529 --> 00:33:43,789 but you'd better give yourself the 471 00:33:52,509 --> 00:33:47,539 errorbar of capacity if you want to 472 00:33:56,529 --> 00:33:52,519 assemble a new effect out of all of this 473 00:34:02,919 --> 00:33:56,539 you also have to withdraw to some degree 474 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:02,929 the ontological aspirations of your 475 00:34:10,329 --> 00:34:07,210 science I think most of our science 476 00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:10,339 family would like to think that what 477 00:34:16,589 --> 00:34:12,800 they have discovered what they have 478 00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:16,599 postulated what they have contended is 479 00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:19,849 basically how the world works its 480 00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:25,040 ontological basic unfortunately I think 481 00:34:31,379 --> 00:34:28,609 that's not the case I think we are still 482 00:34:36,819 --> 00:34:31,389 somewhere way up in the epistemological 483 00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:36,829 level namely we are looking at what we 484 00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:43,280 are looking at it is we who are doing 485 00:34:50,099 --> 00:34:45,560 the experiments it is we who are 486 00:34:55,149 --> 00:34:50,109 designing experiments it is we who are 487 00:34:58,620 --> 00:34:55,159 experiencing the world what we are doing 488 00:35:02,950 --> 00:34:58,630 in our science is representing the 489 00:35:06,430 --> 00:35:02,960 experiences of our experience and that 490 00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:06,440 also must be in our new model I'm gonna 491 00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:10,910 end very quickly here by reading you a 492 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:15,520 couple of a concluding paragraphs from 493 00:35:23,380 --> 00:35:19,310 one or two of our publications that get 494 00:35:29,950 --> 00:35:23,390 to the point this book that's 495 00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:29,960 languishing outside on page 336 comes to 496 00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:34,790 the following position clearly the 497 00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:38,260 traditional array of causal 498 00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:43,060 reductionistic objective falsifiable 499 00:35:51,660 --> 00:35:47,420 tenets of the prevailing scientific 500 00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:51,670 we're gonna require extensive softening 501 00:35:57,550 --> 00:35:55,460 expansion and circumscription to allow 502 00:36:01,690 --> 00:35:57,560 to proceed profitably 503 00:36:05,230 --> 00:36:01,700 in this domain within his conviction 504 00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:05,240 silence of the subjective cannot be 505 00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:09,110 simply a cataloguing mantra it must 506 00:36:15,370 --> 00:36:13,520 become an endemic operational ethic that 507 00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:15,380 can incorporate familiar 508 00:36:23,010 --> 00:36:19,220 well-established phenomena along with 509 00:36:26,110 --> 00:36:23,020 always hear to regard it as anomalous 510 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:26,120 what is required is the profound 511 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:30,560 recognition that all of science as most 512 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:32,930 properly defined in its rigorous 513 00:36:42,090 --> 00:36:37,370 empirical methodology as well as in its 514 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:42,100 theoretical ruminations itself is 515 00:36:50,020 --> 00:36:45,890 inescapably an activity and product of 516 00:36:53,710 --> 00:36:50,030 the human mind and even there is only a 517 00:36:58,690 --> 00:36:53,720 particular leading discipline special 518 00:37:01,560 --> 00:36:58,700 case of the more basic experiencing and 519 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:01,570 reasonable reasoning capabilities 520 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:05,450 thereof it therefore follows that its 521 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:08,830 entire expanded intellectual 522 00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:12,850 superstructure both observational and 523 00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:17,630 contemplative must reflect the influence 524 00:37:26,380 --> 00:37:22,000 of the individual and collective 525 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:26,390 consciousness that contribute to its 526 00:37:34,540 --> 00:37:31,130 formation and its formalization the 527 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:34,550 extent to which reality submits to the 528 00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:38,710 less broadly representational matrix of 529 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:42,110 conventional science will depend on the 530 00:37:48,130 --> 00:37:44,570 particular topic the particular 531 00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:48,140 environment and the astuteness of the 532 00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:52,240 techniques much as the Newtonian 533 00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:55,070 scientific perspective was ultimately 534 00:38:04,430 --> 00:38:00,000 forced to yield to the generalizations 535 00:38:09,830 --> 00:38:04,440 of relativity and quantum mechanics 536 00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:09,840 so the inescapably subjective genesis of 537 00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,240 any expanded scientific logic and 538 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:17,280 formalism must ultimately include 539 00:38:27,609 --> 00:38:23,090 evidence of that subjectivity within its 540 00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:27,619 representations of tangible experience 541 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:30,480 thank you for your attention I'll try to 542 00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:48,570 answer any questions you might know 543 00:38:52,359 --> 00:38:49,680 thank you very much for that very 544 00:38:55,130 --> 00:38:52,369 fascinating presentation as always 545 00:38:58,490 --> 00:38:55,140 there's a podcast that's on the internet 546 00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,500 called brain science podcast by dr. 547 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:01,200 ginger Campbell and she has various 548 00:39:07,490 --> 00:39:04,290 guests on one of her guests was Patricia 549 00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:07,500 Churchland a philosopher with 550 00:39:13,099 --> 00:39:10,859 orientation in neurophysiology and 551 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:13,109 during their discussion the subject of 552 00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:15,450 qualia came up and Patricia Churchland 553 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:19,440 said I don't know what qualia is and and 554 00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:22,770 and then ginger Campbell said I really 555 00:39:28,190 --> 00:39:26,700 don't know what it is either that is 556 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:28,200 something I think that we talked about 557 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:28,650 it 558 00:39:33,740 --> 00:39:31,050 reference to this science of this 559 00:39:43,740 --> 00:39:33,750 subjective how would you explain qualia 560 00:39:56,740 --> 00:39:47,410 but I suspect he would try to explain it 561 00:39:59,340 --> 00:39:56,750 to me it's obviously another term for 562 00:40:04,240 --> 00:39:59,350 what I was trying to say here today 563 00:40:08,980 --> 00:40:04,250 kaalia gets you into subjectivity qualia 564 00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:08,990 gets you into how good it feels how 565 00:40:20,140 --> 00:40:14,630 important it is how resonant you are all 566 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:20,150 of the soft stuff qualia is a name it's 567 00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,130 what we're talking about in light of 568 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:27,680 your comment about uncertainty being the 569 00:40:33,940 --> 00:40:29,330 raw material from which consciousness 570 00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:33,950 can construct new effects I'd appreciate 571 00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:36,230 it if you could comment how you can 572 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:38,780 bring that perspective to for one 573 00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:41,570 example building stones mice experiments 574 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:43,550 which we're probably all familiar with 575 00:40:48,610 --> 00:40:45,850 now from multiple publications in JSC 576 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:48,620 there is absolutely no uncertainty in 577 00:40:53,380 --> 00:40:50,210 the destiny of those mice when they 578 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:53,390 arrive from the repairing laboratory 579 00:41:01,090 --> 00:40:56,450 they will die of cancer in at most 28 580 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:01,100 days period end of sentence Bill engages 581 00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:03,110 a mental procedure at a large number of 582 00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:05,270 them get better and live out normal 583 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:14,530 intervened and taking advantage of some 584 00:41:21,460 --> 00:41:18,770 other factor some other mechanics that 585 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:21,470 does have an intrinsic uncertainty about 586 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:24,770 it by your own definition the fact that 587 00:41:31,830 --> 00:41:27,490 some a fraction of these mice survive 588 00:41:35,350 --> 00:41:31,840 means there was indeed a pertinent 589 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:35,360 uncertainty in their fates the problem 590 00:41:41,950 --> 00:41:38,110 only was to find a handle on it and 591 00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:41,960 activate it I think we ought to let let 592 00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:46,220 Bill tell us what that handle is but 593 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:50,480 there's nothing inconsistent with saying 594 00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:52,510 there is an uncertainty 595 00:41:58,410 --> 00:41:55,990 there is an essential uncertainty in any 596 00:42:00,840 --> 00:41:58,420 process and that is what you have to 597 00:42:04,940 --> 00:42:00,850 work on if you want to change sort of 598 00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:07,860 I'm Chuck leer Bob and I'd like to thank 599 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:10,240 you on behalf of probably everybody here 600 00:42:16,740 --> 00:42:12,250 for your great contributions to our 601 00:42:19,590 --> 00:42:16,750 various fields what do you think are the 602 00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:19,600 chances that there is a conservation 603 00:42:28,530 --> 00:42:23,640 principle of information between 604 00:42:31,140 --> 00:42:28,540 physical entropy and conscious 605 00:42:38,130 --> 00:42:31,150 information trade-off one for one 606 00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:38,140 perhaps I'll bet you're about my bet you 607 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:41,440 can invent it but you better remember 608 00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:45,810 when you get there that you invented it 609 00:42:57,210 --> 00:42:49,920 we know that the currency we call 610 00:43:00,270 --> 00:42:57,220 substance or matter is fungible with 611 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:00,280 energy equals mc-squared and nothing 612 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:03,610 else there are other examples we all 613 00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:07,890 know that the currency we call 614 00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:14,710 information is fungible with energy this 615 00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:22,500 is shannon wheeler shannon weaver 616 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:26,950 business if nothing else there are 617 00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:31,410 recipes who are getting statistically 618 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:35,200 thermodynamically from energy and 619 00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:38,890 information and back again I I'm sure 620 00:43:44,850 --> 00:43:41,680 there are conservation laws but bear in 621 00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:44,860 mind that they are products of the human 622 00:43:51,740 --> 00:43:47,830 mind as well and so they are going to 623 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:51,750 come forward with a nomenclature with a 624 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:55,090 conceptualization that is going to tell 625 00:44:03,480 --> 00:43:58,210 you at least as much about consciousness 626 00:44:05,049 --> 00:44:03,490 as it is about something ontological e 627 00:44:08,189 --> 00:44:05,059 fundamental 628 00:44:12,939 --> 00:44:08,199 in the issue of the fungibility of 629 00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:12,949 energy and information let's give 630 00:44:18,410 --> 00:44:14,790 another round of thanks